Why Are People So Invested in Being Cruel?

[Kathy Barron]

So, I was interested in a link that someone shared over on the Fat Studies Board to an Australian ad that was promoting the idea that "shape discrimination" was as bad as racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, etc. The ad itself was a series of terrible, offensive "jokes" that were supposed to convince people that fat "jokes" were just as bad. It didn't really make sense because the first three jokes were all basically genocidal, whereas the fat joke was about the lack of sexual attractiveness of fat people (a concept that I completely disagree with, by the way).

Then there was a discussion about the ad with a moderator, two people who opposed the ad and two people who supported (and had created) the ad. The most telling thing was in the end, when the conclusion had been reached that telling fat jokes was no longer acceptable, the moderator said something along the lines of, "well, if we can't pick on fat people anymore, then who can we pick on?" And here, for me, is the crux of the issue: to so many people, picking on someone, being cruel, telling jokes that ridicule and mock others feels like an essential part of their life experience. They need victims. They need someone to make fun of -- and they have completely missed the essential point that it is NEVER okay to put others down. Even the guys who had opposed the ad because they found it so offensive joined in on the hunt for other victims. Disturbing.

What makes this personal for me is that some of these hateful sorts have come across my "Fat and Health Video" on You Tube -- and have been writing some horrible, ignorant and hateful comments about it -- and me. Due to that, I have turned off all of my comments and ratings on all of my videos. It has felt kind of alarming to me to see that obviously, they are spreading the word. I've had more than 40 views in the last half hour. I feel like all of these horrible people are gaining up on me to make fun of me. But I'm not taking it personally -- this is the nature of the beast. There are people who actively seek out other people to attack just to get their jollies. I know it's not a reflection of me -- and their words don't hurt me -- but it has affected how I am able to communicate with others now. In order to avoid their hatefulness, I've had to turn off the comments and not be able to connect with and communicate with my legitimate viewers. That's really too bad and I'm not sure what to do about it.

[Kathy Barron]

Hi Vivienne! Good to see you again! I feel like I've been out of touch a bit with a lot of people -- particularly my good friends here at FAN. :))

You always make a lick of sense. LOL

I think there are millions of reasons, both conscious and unconscious.

The question I'm asking now is why are people kind? And how do I hang around those people?! How do I fill my world with people who are loving and supportive and care about each other?

Not that I won't ever be angered or focus on what I don't like again -- but I'm starting to think that I want to focus on the stuff that makes me happy rather than the stuff that bums me out. It's not that I'm completely unaware of the b.s. -- but if there are 50 TV screens running different shows -- and I only have the capacity to watch two shows, for example -- well, I want to choose the shows that I LIKE and that bring me fun and joy, laughter and inspiration. Not the junk.

So, anyway. That's what I'm thinking tonight. And I need to head off to bed -- because the other thing I'm not getting enough of lately -- is sleep! Big hugs!

[Vivienne]

Hello Kathy!

Still thinking about why people are cruel. My husband tells me that I have been over-estimating people (from the individual to humanity in general :) my entire life and then being disappointed. I think people are cruel for a number of reasons.

One is that people are just plain dumb and plain stupid--both genetically incapable and ill-informed. People lack both critical thinking skills and fundamental knowledge. And, they are unconsciously ignorant.

I was having an argument with someone at work about whether a patient was depressed. This is MY area of expertise and not that of the person who was arguing with me. I was getting more than a little testy but the woman was a friend. Finally, I said, "I am going to run upstairs and get the diagnostics manual and you prove to me that the patient is depressed." She said, "Oh, I didn't know there were diagnostic symptoms." This rocked my world!!! She was willing to argue with an expert (me :) at length about a subject that she was so ignorant about that she did not even know that there was anything she didn't know! WOW! This actually changed my view of the world--literally.

So, number 1. People are dumb and stupid.

Second. Many people have a "See-saw" view of life. They believe that if someone else is up, they are down and if someone else is down, they are up. They do not see people and their successes or failures as unrelated. So, essentially, they feel good when they put you down.

Third, so many people have suffered so much at the hands of their parents and families that it is amazing that they walk around.

So, that is my view. But, within the hour, I will be saying, "Why are people so cruel!?!" because...the answers just don't explain it.

Do I make a lick of sense?

[Kathy Barron]

I didn't read it, Vivienne. And I avoid reading comments anywhere on the internet as a general practice -- way too many assholes out there showing their shit. (Pardon the expression, but, seriously ...).

Somebody (maybe Kate Harding?) talks about "sanity points" -- and how reading crap like that can use up your sanity points in a hurry.

I don't know if that's how most people really feel or not -- I tend to think not. I think that people who write shit like that are people who troll around the internet looking for places where they can spread their discontent and hatred. Most people out in the real world are living their real lives, dealing with real problems and challenges, and not so busy judging, harassing, and making fun of other people.

I think Michigan is a fairly fat friendly state. I don't really pay attention -- to me, it just seems like people are people -- you find both nice people and assholes everywhere you go.

[Vivienne]

Kathy, did you read the Guardian article "Love Your Fat Kid" and the vicious comments? I read about the article on the Yahoo groups Fat Studies or Fat Studies UK. The advice was not to read the "comments." I read them anyway :( I can see one good in these vicious comments--it is better to know what people are really thinking than not to know. I was going to say that these comments represent the lowest common denominator of a society but then realized--these are the comments from the READING public!

I loathe lack of logic, reason, compassion, common sense, and knowledge. That about sums up the human race!

I notice when vacationing in Mexico a huge difference in body acceptance, also. I have only been to Spain very briefly. In most of Europe, I feel extremely self conscious because there seem to be far fewer fat folks.

I think the Upper Midwest is very fat friendly.

[Kathy Barron]

Very interesting comments, Binty and Vivienne. So much to think about ....

Vivienne, I'm glad that the newspaper might do a story on blaming the victims. And that they turned off the comments. I'm amused about your niece hitting the minister's son -- and not entirely opposed to that as a method of handling things when people continue being cruel after being asked to stop. Good for her! If I were your sister, I think I'd be a little proud of that, actually -- and tell those people what they can do with their shock and dismay. LOL

I lived in Spain for almost a year -- and I absolutely loved it! There is a huge, almost ineffable difference in values and in lifestyle there. I would love to have the chance to live in Spain again for a while -- or at least visit for a few months.

[Vivienne]

Very thoughtful response, Binty, to a very good question. As I look at my own responses, I see how quickly I go from 0 to enraged--and frustrated. I am one hot tempered woman. I over-identify with the oppressed and expendable classes!

One very small thing that I will definitely do is to call the newspaper about the discussion following the rape story--which I don't remember to do until evening. I actually think that they might do a story on the "blame the victim" dynamic. My husband is a psychologist who has had a big feature story in the past so they might even interview him again. I will suggest the nearest rape crisis center, also

I will also suggest that they turn off comments sections on crimes or stories involving minors in the future.

In response to some of your comments, Binty, I find that many progressives have all kinds of prejudices. They just don't have the socially condemned prejudices. So, people that would never make fun of someone of another race will make fun of people with poor dental care, or lower class accents--or fat people. When it becomes unfashionable to be prejudiced against fat people, then progressives will stop being prejudiced--in my NHO :)

So many people are very dichotomous in their thinking. Every thing is very black and white--or up and down. Life is a see-saw to many people and if someone else is down, then they feel up. The concept of life as a woven fabric of compassion and connection seems incomprehensible.

I am so very curious about what it is that people teach their children? My niece was being tormented by "fat" comments by other kids. My sister called the parents and NONE of them concurred with her that this was unacceptable social behavior. One parent suggested that my niece lose weight! [My sister unthinkingly told my niece to just "sock" the next person that teased her. It was the minister's son and my niece hit him! My sister was afraid to answer the phone for a week.]

I am very curious about other cultures. I have never lived anywhere but the USA.

[Binty]

This is such a good question to ask.

One of the difficulties of being human is the way we each have to fit in to our societies. In a sense, we all have to learn to bend ourselves to fit in, whilst maintaining the truth of ourselves. Sometimes we can't get the balance right, and we break instead.

We all have to find ways to deal with and resolve these things as best we can.

For some people, especially those with a very huge sense of entitlement, that means they are entitled to expendable classes that exist purely to regulate our dysfunction and that of our culture and society.

These sacrificial classes are supposed to feel priviliged to contain and arrange their lives around that dysfunction enough to enpower the entitled classes, (it's never enough for them though, they still whine and complain, endlessly).

It's a little bit like that story in the Bible where they drive the demons into the animals-sorry, I can't remember whether it was the sheep or the lambs or the pigs!!!- and then drive them off the cliff.

It's like metaphor for the way societies avoid dealing with their nasty bits, of course by doing this, you do not resolve your 'demons' this way, so you carry on creating them, that's the irresponsibility that's intrinsic to it, added to it's cruelty.

What's so disappointing about fat hatred, that especially a lot of progressives who indulge can't seem to get, is that we were beginning to feel that a society lived as honestly as we can was and is becoming increasingly conceivable.

By getting into fat hating, they've shown that they aren't on board with that and want to have some class of people who as well as living their lives in shame, have to deal with their shit as well. That then makes their claims of working towards a fair society look a bit shaky. Who cares what the reason you are in the benighted class for? It's the fact that the system exists in that way that is the problem, not necessarily who's in it.

Social justice is not about sentimentality, oh, let's give the women/ blacks/ whatever a break and try someone else for a change, it means and end to this kind of abuse of each other full stop.

I'm really excited about a future where we can use the energy we waste oppressing each other, which actually, drags us all down, the oppressor as well as the oppressed.

By the way, if they want 'targets' what's wrong with the powerful when they abuse that power?

[Vivienne]

It is a common phenomenon, sadly. I think this was particularly upsetting because the girl was so young, the boy is so popular, and even though I don't know any of the parties involved, it happened locally. I checked the newspaper and they removed previous comments and disabled the comments section.

Another concern of mine is that because she was a minor and because her identity was known, I don't think that the newspaper should have allowed comments at all.

I hope this girl and her family never read the papers.

A few years ago there was a male teacher here who had been having relationships with high school girls for some time. He had been enticing to my friend's sister out and written letters to her. He had a sexual relationship with his own minister's daughter and they contacted the authorities. When all of this became public, the church TOOK THE SIDE OF THE TEACHER!

My friend's sister sent her letters--which she had saved from years previous--to the authorities.

One simple explanation I have for this phenomenon is that most people are too simple minded to really understand that the same fabulous teacher they had at 1pm is also a pervert at 5pm. We sometimes cannot grasp that someone we love has done evil things or that there are many sides to human nature.

Sigh...

[Kathy Barron]

Vivienne ~ that is a very common phenomena that happens re: blaming girls/women for being raped and continuing to hold the boys/men as heroes. There are many famous instances of that -- I think Riane Eisler writes about that in Sacred Pleasure. Judges have even gone so far as to "understand" how a father could rape his young daughter (I'm talking like SIX years old!) because she's so "beautiful" and "sexy". We just live in a totally fucked up patriarchal world.

As for this instance in your county, I think that your idea to call the newspapers is a good one. I don't know what can be done. My first instinct is to organize and to rally around this girl and protest in the streets and make a big fucking issue about it. But then, this poor girl probably doesn't want any more attention -- I don't know. Dammit!!!! I HATE the violence that is done to women and children around this world every minute of every day!!!!! And what can we do?

I'm really worried about this girl -- I wonder if she will avoid reading the newspaper blog -- or if she'll read it and feel overwhelmed and maybe even become suicidal. It is VERY IRRESPONSIBLE of the newspaper to allow those sorts of comments to be posted on their blog. That's NOT free speech -- that is ... I don't even know what the fuck that is. Can you send me a link to that? I want to write to the newspaper.

Pema Chodron talks about having compassion for people who are violent, attacking, etc. -- and the compassion is to NOT let them get away with that. The compassion is to keep them from being able to attack other people. Compassion is NOT, NOT, NOT "loving" everyone and thinking everyone is great and being positive all of the time. Sometimes compassion and kindness are stopping someone from being a total asshole. The compassion that I would give this boy is to put him in jail where he belongs so that he doesn't hurt anyone else. The compassion I would give the ignorant is the opportunity to learn. I will definitely NOT have the warm-fuzzies for them. I won't think of them as the innocent beloveds of their mothers. I won't have pity for them. That is a fucked-up version of "compassion" that I thought was the definition for a long time (like until just this last month when I was exposed to Pema's ideas and they resonated totally for me).

As for my little problem, I put my video into "private" for the night, so nobody could get to it without an invite. I made it "public" again yesterday -- and have turned the comments on all of my videos to a moderated status, which means I have to approve them before they are posted. I've saved the comments I received before -- I'm working on a size-positive novel, and I figure that this will give me some good material for the bad guys -- I mean, you can't even make this ugly shit up. Who thinks like that?! LOL So, the jerks are doing the work for me.

[Vivienne]

I need to learn to spell, too.